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| Farm, Forge and Steam |
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| Average Rating:3.5 / 5 |
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Crop yield statistics for ancient times (up to the fall of the Roman Empire) and into the early Dark Ages are very low, far lower than that given by period sources. Also, this work assumes the beneficial nature of monastic intitutions, and while there is some evidence they were beneficial there is also evidence that their activities actually set agriculture yields back millinia by destroying beneficial strains through breading worse-yielding strains with superior survival charactertics. Also ignored is the serious regression in technology experienced in Europe during and after the fall of Rome, this includes the loss of many farm technologies and methods. All of these contributed to the low-yield agriculture experienced during the late Dark Ages and Early Medieval.
Also inaccurately represented is the nature and frequency of famine. Famine in some regions was very rare, in others more frequent. Decades might pass between famines, and centuries between very bad famines. Many famines were caused by military conflict and deliberate destruction of crops, rather than natural causes. Technology, such as wells and aqeducts, mitigated natural causes but conflict could, and did, destroy these as well. Without proper mechanics for famine its impossible to represent real cultures with these rules. The stability created by the great empires (Rome specifically, but others as well, such as Egyptian) substantially reduced the rate famine (less military confict in prime ahricultural areas). The fractured political landscape of the late Dark and early Medieval periods was a significant factor in the rate of famine and disease.
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Creator Reply: |
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Yes, it is an old work, based on older material, some of which is now known to be wrong (but wasn't, or wasn't widely, known to be at the time the book was written) ... and some of which is still being picked over by competing schools of historical thought, some of which you provide as an alternative point of view ... given that the book covers all of recorded history (and before!) in such a short space there was, of course, some simplification.
If anyone is interested in a more comprehensive treatment of a sub-set of the period covered in FF&S, specifically the Medieval Period (even more specifically the period from roughly AD 1000 to AD 1400), I would suggest looking at 'Orbis Mundi 2' which has been recently Kickstarted and is available from Phalanx Games Design on this site ... 470 odd pages to cover 400 years ... which is to be followed in the first half of 2018 by 'The Marketplace' which will look at the economics and actual prices of items in faux medieval RPGs and will probably run to another 128+ pages.
OM2 looks at some of the issues you raise in detail and, while it (and I, obviously) disagree with some of the conclusions you have put forward, it makes note of key areas where there is ongoing debate ... and, for example, TM looks at Famine cycles for the period in much more detail then even OM2 (15-30 year cycles of 'bad' famines and 90-120 year cycles of *really* bad ones for the 11th-14th centuries, where the former were more likely regional or national and the latter multi-national or even Europe-wide) ... however, on my reading of things for the 11th-14th centuries famines, the bad ones, were mostly the result of climatic variation and unusual weather pattern variation. Yes, military action could make them worse, often much much worse, but it was rare for a multi-regional famine to be *just* a result of military action.
In any case, I would recommend you have a look at OM2 ... if you email me or PM me through RPGNow I'll happily give you a voucher for $9.99 off the price of the PDF version! |
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Food (and Metal) for Thought
In Farm, Force, and Steam, Phillip MacGregor emphasizes the continuous evolution of past pre-industrial societies, and the ecological and technological constraints on these societies, in order to show how they could affect hypothetical societies, especially fantasy ones. I would like to have seen more discussion of actual societies. While there's ongoing debate over Roman population, there something closer to consensus about late medieval and early modern population, town sizes, trade links, etc. I would also like to have seen notes on plausible town sizes and army sizes, since both are often exaggerated. I would also like to add that there were towns/cities, such as Cahokia, and civilization in the Mississippi plains before European contact.
If you're interested in the topic, I would suggest this book, and I would suggest looking at the works of Brian Fagan for a broad overview of anthropology, Marvin Harris if they are interested in another cultural materialist view, and perhaps either Walter Scheidel or Saskia Hin if they are interested in Roman population densities, population sizes, and life expectancies.
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Creator Reply: |
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Thanks for the kind words.
I am currently working on an updated version of \'Orbis Mundi\', which covers the Medieval Period (14th-15th centuries) which will also incorporate material from FF&S and Displaced in an attempt to give a more rounded view of one particular period in one particular place (Western Europe, mainly) to deal with some of the constraints that existed on medieval level civilisations in the area ... depending on how that goes, I may (probably will) revisit, revise and expand FF&S with a similar intent (eventually ...) |
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The book is an excellent read on the historical relationship between food production, technical advancement, disease and societal change. It's goal is to introduce more realism into fantasy society designs. That's where it falls down in my opinion. We all know people who snarkily rip ideas to fix something apart, but when pressed for their "fix" get mumbles. That's the way the book reads. Based on its inherent logic, Elves and Dwarves can't exist as written in almost all FRPG's, not enough food production for the population. Ok, so how do we make those work? That's where the ideas dry up. Universal Empires aren't realistic in FRPGS's, as no Universal Empire was actually in stasis. From historical perspective, right on, but from an FRPG perspective, what would make it work? That's what I was hoping to see, not just a listing of why everyone else's idea sucked, but what are your ideas to make things work.
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Creator Reply: |
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Of course Elves and Dwarves can work ... just not as most FRPGs describe them. Sylvan (Forest Dwelling) Elves are problematic, as are entirely aristocratic \'High\' Elves - Elvish civilisations would have to resemble human ones ... large areas to grow crops and large workforces set to growing those crops. If they have a \'higher\' level of civilisation than humans then they will have a better understanding of agriculture and get higher yields ... perhaps they understand composting, which western european societies didn\'t until quite late, and they probably have extensive irrigation works and the like. And there\'s be an Elvish peasant class (or Human peasants, perhaps, labouring away in the fields for their Elvish overlords). All in all they will too closely resemble classical western feudal societies nor classical fictional Elvish societies ...
As for Dwarves, the same applies - entirely underground dwelling ones are unlikely in the extreme. So what? Dwarves as Miners, Stonemasons and Metalworkers *aren\'t\' ... so where are they likely to live, where Mines and Quarries often tend to be - in Hilly and Mountainous regions. They will resemble the Swiss or similar peoples, in Western European terms, or Tibetans, Nepalis the like in Asian terms. They will have valley floor or terraced hillsides where they grow their crops and will almost certainly herd sheep, cattle and goats on some sort of transhumance basis. Not at all like the ridiculous ideas most game backgrounds assume.
Universal Empires. They simply cannot exist in the ways that most if not all RPGs write them up - but it really doesn\'t matter as RPGs rarely *actually* exist beyond the campaign period in which your PCs play. You just can\'t have thousand year (or multi-thousand year) \'Ages\' or \'Eras\' (or whatever) where things remain at unchanged Feudal levels of Technology forever.
You get something like the Romans ... 753 BC through to 1453 AD, but to refer to the whole period as the \'Roman Empire\' is simply wrong, you have Bronze Age Kings developing into Iron Age Republic expanding throughout the Mediterranean and self destructing into a disguised Military Dictatorship (the Principate) and then developing into an Imperial Autocratic State (the Dominate) and then several more stages until the Medieval semi-Feudal late East Roman state that the Ottomans destroyed. Technology did not remain static any more than society did ... stirrups, horseshoes, windmills (vertical and horizontal), overshot and undershot waterwheels, cheaper iron and steel smelting making plate armour possible and requiring new weapons capable of smashing through it, crossbows changed and matured, gunpowder is developed and lots more.
That\'s over 2000 years, not the many thousand year ages that seem de rigeur in many RPGs (civilisation is only 5500-6000 years old, going back to first recognisable/readable writing systems ... and there isn\'t a single \'Universal Empire\' in the whole period, and no unchanging thousand year \'Ages\', either) ... pre-modern societies aren\'t any more static than modern ones, it is just their distance from us in time and a lack of knowledge about their *details* (simply not covered in the general survey works that most history courses use to teach about them) that make them *seem* to be unchanging, not to mention a bad (but understandable) habit of the writers of such survey works to concentrate on \'snapshots\', sometimes from one short time period within a civilisation\'s much longer existence, sometimes several snapshots of different aspects of the civilisation from several widely spread periods and pass them off as if they are representative of the whole in all ways.
That would be like taking snapshots of what society and technology was like during 1914-19 Europe and placing them in a survey text on the Cold War and implying that they represent society as it was in the 1970s and 1980s and methods of warfare that would have been used in any major conflict ... which is obviously ridiculous!
All this is actually there in the historical or economic record.
As the intro said, FF&S is a *meta* product and points out the limitations of the then extant (when written) and succeeding products ... and presumes that the readers are smart and motivated enough to consider the issues and design their own solutions to the issues raised.
If you wish to see a snapshot of a real late medieval world on the verge of the Renaissance and how it worked, then you could have a look at \'Orbis Mundi\' and if you want some ideas as to how to create a more detailed pre-modern society with some actual numbers to crunch through, the you can look at \'Displaced\' ... both these books supplement FF&S and were logical developments from it as FF&S was the second oldest PGD product.
Still, FF&S is overdue for an update and rewrite and, when I get around to it, it will include material from the books mentioned as well as another decade\'s research and will probably make more specific (if not excessively detailed) suggestions for workable nonhuman fantasy societies as well as ways to make realistic historical backgrounds for people who do not have the time or (understandably!) the desire do it completely unaided ... but it won\'t simply do the whole job, and has never been intended as more than a *meta* product, and the rewrite won\'t do it either.
That won\'t be for at least another year (probably more) as I am working on a major project to be Kickstarted later in 2015 ... a six or seven book update/rewrite of the first part (pre-Armageddon, loosely) of \'Road to Armageddon\' and that will be followed (in 2016+) with a multi-book update/rewrite of the second part (post-Armageddon, loosely).
NB: The second part of Road to Armageddon will include a Fantasy background with societies that have to deal with exactly the issues raised in FF&S, and which have *a* set of solutions for those issues ... and that will allow campaigning in an entirely \'fantasy\' world without \'modern\' technology or characters from the 21st century ... but one that isn\'t simply (*I* think, rightly or wrongly) isn\'t simply a cloned version of feudal Europe (or Asia) with tacked on fantasy races that make no sense.
So your issues are understood, and there are existing products that help address them, and forthcoming products that hopefully do more. Sadly, as a one man operation, even if now retired, all the writing, layout, mapmaking, art buying and everything else has to be done by that one person, so it won\'t be instant.
If you would like to have a look at \'Displaced\', which may be a partial solution to your issues, email me at aspqrz@tpg.com.au and I will arrange a coupon for a free copy so you can see if it does ... that\'s the best I can do for now! |
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I've been doing world building for a long time, and have also for a long time purchased and read various guides and books on history, and on the construction of realistic campaign worlds. With Farm, Forge and Steam, I hoped I had picked up a document that would allow me to put numbers on some of my questions.
Unfortunately, I didn't get that.
The first five chapters provides an overview of the subjects of the Farm, the Forge, and Steam, such as diseases and demographics, the development metallurgy, and the development of machine power versus muscle power. Good stuff that both provides an overview, and sprinkles it with interesting examples. It also concentrates not only on Europe, but also takes the occasional look on China, the Americas and other cultures.
At the end of each of the first four chapters, it provides a few rules for your world building purposes. Unfortunately, they are mostly fluff, and rarely have much substance. They are good to keep in mind, and will give your campaign character, but they don't provide any skeleton to build that campaign on. After the farming chapter I hoped I would get a table for the proportion of farmers to specialists, the farmland required and typical city sizes. After the forge chapter I hoped for information on when various metals appeared where and what prerequisite technologies were for their use. I really hoped for some type of step-by-step technological progression somewhere (settlements before agriculture, agriculture before smithing, furnaces before steel).
But I didn't really get that. Sure, the answers to some of those questions are buried in the text, but they aren't set up so I can take this document, and make myself a bronze age civilization. Or a fantasy world with a "roman" civilization surrounded by barbarians.
Chapter six is dedicated to pointing out some flaws in some fantasy world. It does provide food for thought, but doesn't actually provide any help on what you should do, only what you should not.
Chapter seven briefly looks at magic, taking the stance that magic must equate to technology. From there it makes a couple of conclusions which I've already seen made in dozens of internet discussions on the subject. Nothing new here.
In conclusion, buy it for the history and fluff, not for the worldbuilding promises.
LIKED: The first five chapters
DISLIKED: Provides no solid information for the creation of a playable fantasy campaign world.
QUALITY: Nice pictures and layout. Noticed no spelling errors or layout problems. But it doesn't implement bookmarks, so you have to scroll to get from chapter to chapter.
VALUE: Nice for a guide on historical development, abysmal for guide on campaign world creation
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A decent overview of technology. Not really much practical use for it though.<br><br><b>QUALITY</b>: Acceptable<br><br><b>VALUE</b>: Satisfied<br>
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I will start by saying the author of this book did a good job of summarizing and organizing many of the important factors that led to the development of civilzation as we know it in the real world. I was familiar with some of the sources in his bibliography and was looking for some enlightenment into other areas with which I was unfamiliar, as well as into how this knowledge can be used to create a more "realistic" fantasy world (as oxymoronic as that may be).
In this endeavor, I think the author failed spectacularly. He seems infinitely more interested in addressing what are obviously big pet peeves of his about aspects of traditional fantasy worlds than in speculating on the effect magic and an interventionist pantheon of gods would have on their development. The reader is told far too many times about the absurdity of "big bearded" humanoids living underground and continent spanning empires whose technology remains static for millenia. There are a grand total of three pages in the book designed to address how the existence of magic would have an impact on the development of civilization.
Ironically, for a person publishing a book being sold on an RPG website, the author seems too grounded in logic, science and the real world to be of any help in envisioning how a fantasy world might have developed. We are told that in the real world, suits of armor would take months to create and would require several fittings. It would be absurd to have a store where one could walk in, slap down some gold pieces and walk out with a suit of chain mail. Well sure, it wouldn't be realistic, but the other world wouldn't be much fun to play in, no?
I will also add that the book did not appear to have been edited at all. The page numbers on the table of contents do not match the printed page numbers, new terms aren't well defined, there are sentences that have clearly been incompletely rewritten, so the result makes no sense. Proper nouns like Europe and Asia were not consistently capitalized, but at other times capitalization would be used to emphaisze words that aren't normally capitalized.<br><br>
<b>LIKED</b>: Research into the hsitory of how civilization developed<br><br><b>DISLIKED</b>: Gross lack of imagination into how a fantasy world would be different from the real world. Poorly edited.<br><br><b>QUALITY</b>: Disappointing<br><br><b>VALUE</b>: Ripped Off<br>
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Creator Reply: |
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Thank you for the comment about the incorrect page numbering. Somehow an old file with uncorrected page numbers was uploaded instead of the (then) most recent one. I have just (19/01/2007) uploaded a corrected file that fixes this and some other minor typographical or editing errors.
(Including, undoubtedly, some of those you commented on).
As for the rest of your comments, I am somewhat at a loss -
the product *promises* to provide a logical basis for campaign design ... and says so, up front!
In the product description!
So to be praised for doing so in the first sentences of your comments and then castigated for it thereafter, when that was the purpose of the product *and* it was plainly stated that that was its purpose ... well, it seems strange.
Thanks for pointing out the pagination error in any case.
Phil |
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Interesting to read. Gives a good basis on creating a world based on real world facts.<br><br><b>LIKED</b>: Interesting read.<br><br><b>DISLIKED</b>: Proper grammer, spelling, and editting were not a priority in this book. No mechanics. No demo provided (would have changed my buying decision.)<br><br><b>QUALITY</b>: Acceptable<br><br><b>VALUE</b>: Satisfied<br>
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A must for anyone wanting to design a believable word.<br><br><b>LIKED</b>: Excellent layout.<br><br><b>QUALITY</b>: Excellent<br><br><b>VALUE</b>: Very Satisfied<br>
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I was expecting more mechanics than what was included (not really any). But it was a very interesting read.<br><br><b>LIKED</b>: Very interesting.
Well researched.<br><br><b>DISLIKED</b>: Very little actual mechanics or statistics I could use.<br><br><b>QUALITY</b>: Very Good<br><br><b>VALUE</b>: Satisfied<br>
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This is a brilliant resource for anyone that wants to design a cohesive and deep game world. There is no padding in this product -it is well researched and well written. It won't appeal to those who don't care that a game world doesn't make sense on a social, demographic or economic level, but will certainly appeal to those that do. Highly recommended.<br><br><b>QUALITY</b>: Excellent<br><br><b>VALUE</b>: Very Satisfied<br>
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Very possibly one of the single most useful tomes I have ever purchased (and believe you me, I purchase a ton)! This is FULL of useful and intriguing information. Game idea after game idea literally lept from the pages as I read through it. Also, as someone who most often skims through products until such time as I find something eye-catching, I actually read through this entire product word-for-word.<br><br><b>LIKED</b>: Excellent presentation of the subject and organization of the material. Well supported arguments and positions. <br><br><b>DISLIKED</b>: This really should have gone through at least an additional round of editing for spelling and grammar. Nothing too serious though.<br><br><b>QUALITY</b>: Excellent<br><br><b>VALUE</b>: Very Satisfied<br>
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I've been looking for this kind of book for a long time. Trying to design a setting is hard enough, with so many things you need to think about. This book serves as a great reminder list.<br><br><b>LIKED</b>: The information in FFaS is useful for any kind of genre. Sections 6 and 7 are perhaps the best parts.<br><br><b>DISLIKED</b>: I'd have like to have seen a bit more about why certain transitions from one technology to another happened, but I don't think that's much of a drawback to this book.<br><br><b>QUALITY</b>: Excellent<br><br><b>VALUE</b>: Very Satisfied<br>
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